New X-10, Old X-10, Insteon and Z-Wave ??????

[dominicv]

Good morning Folks,

Its been a while since I have been involved with Home Automation.

I have been a fanatic for a lot of years, I just need to be updated.

With the introduction of Insteon, and Z-wave in Home Automation, what impact have these new players brought on.

From what I understand the X-10-PRO version of modules all have this AGC, where the regular x-10 do not, does the addition of this device make these modules more reliable.

I know some of you use Insteon, while others use Z-Wave.

With this message I would like to gather your experiences and impressions on the type of modules you own, expressed in this type of format, would be great.

I have X-10 regular --> Pros : ______________________________________

--> Cons : _____________________________________

--> Recommendations : _________________________

Etc.

Hopefully, this short survey will shed some light on this subject.

Thanks Guys.

Dom

[Richard Naninck]

I have neither. I use FS20, but that is European only I guess.

I used to use X10 and I am glad I got rid of it.
Cons: expensive, not reliable at all, slow etc

A10 or S10 would be better.
What is AGC? (Auto Gain Control??)

I would have bought ZWave if it was available here.
Pro's: many different devices, expanding bubble, wireless so easy to install in old houses without having to cut open walls, HVAC control, not very expensive for what you get, HouseBot supports it.

I don't know anything about the rest. Working on an EIB (European Interface Bus) system right now. All wired but also Europe only. Expensive, but 100% spot on and very fast with status replies.

[dominicv]

Hi Richard,

I checked the FS20 modules, I can see what you mean, they may be expensive, but then you don't have to worry about reliability problems.

I was wondering, are you the author of all the posted SW screens, we find on this site.

AGC, yes, auto gain control, don't know what it does.

From what I have read, these modules even though they are X-10 PRO series are much more reliable than the previous version or regular X-10.

Dom

[Richard Naninck]

FS20 is not expensive at all. That's a pro for that system.

AGC probably measures noise on the line and compensates for it.
I didn't like the old X10 because it was very unreliable, short range and very dependant on other equipment. A PC usually puts lots of static on the power line and X10 just doesn't handle it well.

I did post screenshots on the forum, as did others. My name should be visible in the post, so not sure what you are referring to.

[dominicv]

Thanks Richard,

I looked at those screenshots again, Yep!!!, they are yours.

O.K. first they are incredibly detailled and extreemly well done, so you are either an engineer, a top notch programer, or a designer, which one is it Richard.

Some of the screenshots out there are great, Kevin from Edgar, is also very talented, does beautiful work.

I may get there eventualy at least I know who to go and see if I need help.

There are some very knowledgeable and talented people here, that's great.

Dom

[edgar]

Hello,

I have mostly all Insteon installed right now. I don't have alot of experience with Z-wave but many articles seem to favor Insteon better (see below).

Here is my experience with the survey:

OLD X-10: unreliable, very prone to noise

New X-10: not much experience with it

Intseon: I have about 30 Insteon devices. These work quite well. If set up correctly Insteon uses powerline but also wireless to ensure signals get where they need to be. It has acknowledgements, unlike older X-10 (signals keep getting transmitted until the receive device responds with acknoledgement). Powerline interference can still be an issue however so filters may be needed for certain things. I also recommend installing a bridge coupler in between your two 110V phases to ensure signals bridge across.

Insteon vs. Z-Wave: There are many articles out there. It appears Z-wave is more expensive and there are not as many devices. Insteon seems to be capturing the market quite well in the US with their Insteon motion sensors, keypads, door locks, Insteon to relay switches, and Insteon to IR type devices.

Again, I have not worked with Z-wave at all...just sharing what I have read.

Reliability: Insteon is still not 100% reliable. For my experience I would say its about 95% reliable. I would not use it for vital control (security system etc.), but i do use it to show status, control IR, stuff like that on my Keypadlincs

v/r

Kevin

[vcruz777]

In my case I have been using Insteon for 3-4 years. Before insteon I used X-10 but qiuckly changed to insteon because I needed 2-way communication. Since I bought most of my insteon devices (~35) when insteon was starting I got most of them for $20. Now they are more expensive but still less than Z-Wave. I haven't had mechanical failures with the devices like other people have reported but I can also say that I normally get 95% accuracy, even with filters and bridges.

Pros:
1. Relatively cheap
2. A lot of different devices available. (I use switches, keypads, 30A relays for ACs and Heaters, Motion sensors, universal outputs/inputs)
3. Reliable if properly set up.

Cons:
1. If the PLM fails and need to replace it it is a nightmare to re link all your network.
2. Not a 100% reliable. ( I hate that 5% still missing, specially when updating a change done directly in the switch)

Recommendation:
I cannot compare Insteon with Z-Wave but based on price and variety of devices I would say that Insteon is a good choice. I am still using the old ones that I bough 3-4 years ago. I imagine that the new ones should be more reliable.

Saludos,

Victor

[Steve Horn]

I'm using Insteon. Ditto to previous comments on X10 and Insteon reliability. I will add that I've had 2 Insteon device failures. One was the PLC, which triggered me into converting to the PLM interface device. The other was a an Insteon/Icon wall switch. The Icon is a lower price/few features version of the Insteon model.(Presumably the same hardware; just different firmware.) On other forums, Smarthome/Smartlabs/Insteon has a bad rep for quality control issues like this. But maybe others on this forum with a lot of Insteon (I have ~10 devices) can speak to their experiences. I have no knowledge of Zwave other than the technology, etc.

[Richard Naninck]

Well, it seems obvious to go for Insteon and abandon X10

[Steve Horn]

At least abandon X10. Another opportunity for z-wave vs. Insteon decision making may be mined from http://cocoontech.com

[raptor_demon]

Thought i would chime in here,

I have a 20-30 node Z-wave setup but have never used powerline x10 in my own home.

I like it because:
It is reliable
Fast
Wireless
Cheap-ish
lots of differnet devices

Cons:
the cheaper switches are no longer avaliable



Suggestions
I have dimmers, thermostats and relays plus a few remotes and they work great.

i do have some wireless x10 remotes and motion detectors as they are cheaper than the z-wave ones.

Raptor

[dominicv]

WOW!!!,

After reading your comments, I'm overwelmed by the number of members that use the Insteon products.

I forgot to ask, how does one provide the link between the Insteon products and HB.

Dom

[dominicv]

Sorry Guys,

I've just noticed that Raptor_Demon carries a great deal of the Z-Wave nodes, 20 to 30, WOW !!!.

Raptor, I looking at the Z-Wave product line, I've noticed that one can purchase Intermatic Z-Wave modules at a pretty raisonable price, to you knowledge would the quality be as good as pricier modules from other manufacturer.

Dom

[raptor_demon]

Hi Dom,

I use the Intermatic homesettings line which has become discontinued. Sadly they were the cheapest.

i only have experince with the cheaper intermatic modules. From what i understand the more expensive modules allow for more options like adjustable ramp rate and support of scenes without software like housebot.

here is a comparison matrix of some of the switches. the Wayne dalton HA14W is the same as the intermatic HA14c which has been discontinued.

Dimmers
http://store.homeseer.com/store/HomeSee ... 16C42.aspx

Relays:
http://store.homeseer.com/store/HomeSee ... W7C43.aspx

If you want some more info on Z-wave i have a contact at Smarthome-products who is very knowledgable and an all round great guy.

Before i went down the various routes i did a fair ammout of reaserch and decided z-wave was best for me based on price and functionality. i really liked that it was not powerline based as i didn't want to worry about clean power and i liked the fact that z-wave uses a wireless mesh network.

here is a link to the screenshots of my setup:
viewtopic.php?f=21&t=856633

raptor

[PServais]

Richard,

do you still use FS20 modules?
I'm looking for the best wireless solution because it is impossible for me to run wires.
I have a few "KlikaanKlikuit" modules for the lights and want to buy the rfxcom transmitter to control them.
For the heating i thought that I could buy the FS20 thermostat knobs but I've read that they are 868 MHz.
After some research I saw that all FS20 is 868 Mhz, how do you control them thru Housebot?
I thought I could use the rfxcom transmitter, but on the rfxcom site all they have is a 433,92 Mhz transmitter.

Hope you can help me.

Patrick